In civilian life, poor aptitude testing can have a tremendous negative impact, whether for college placement or for simple job advancement. The memorial is free and open to the public 24 hours a day, with rangers on duty to answer questions from 9:30 a.m. to 10 p.m. daily. Instead its nearly in the center. Senate. The Names - Vietnam Veterans Memorial Fund The Names When the Wall was dedicated in 1982, there were 57,939 names inscribed. The Vietnam War is no different. Less than 1 percent (0.8) were Jewish, Hindu, Thai, Buddhist or Muslim combined, and 5.7 listed no religion. In an effort to further preserve the legacy of those who sacrificed all in Vietnam, VVMF is committed to finding a photo to go with each of the more than 58,000 names on The . At the time, approximately 1,300 names were designated as servicemen who were either missing or prisoners of war. It should be emphasized that 55 percent of all Navy and Air Force officer casualties came as a result of reconnaissance and bombing sorties into North Vietnam, Laos, Thailand and Cambodia. They drew on every segment of American society. No other American war has presented such a young profile in combat. Though the memorial continues to grow and evolve, the last name on the wall still belongs to Air Force Second Lieutenant Richard Vandegeer, a pilot who died after his helicopter crashed on May 15, 1975, during the wars final combat action. As they came through the door, Viet Cong guerrillas opened fire with machine guns. . Millions more come to experience this Memorial each year. Access to Non-Archival Military Service Records is limited. A relatively small number refused to register for the draft at all. On the Vietnam Veterans Memorial site in Washington, D.C., a special plaque reads: "In Memory of the men and women who served in the Vietnam War and later died as a result of their service. 5,058) had ever known and cheered. She wanted the names to tell the journey, or the timeline, of the war. The Vietnam Wall at the Buffalo and Erie County Naval & Military Park features the names of local fallen soldiers. There are students on field trips, some solemn and curious, but some just happy to get out of class. The major service academies and other military colleges provided close to 900 of the Vietnam officer casualties: the U.S. Military Academy, 278; the U.S. Air Force Academy, 205; the U.S. The slabs meet at a vertex of 125 degrees, 10 feet above ground level to form the Wall. A(1780 names - 239023 bytes) B(5502 names - 737972 bytes) C(4363 names - 586584 bytes) D(2790 names - 374290 bytes) E(1082 names - 144866 bytes) F(1979 names - 265759 bytes) G(3036 names - 407075 bytes) H(4463 names - 598834 bytes) I(218 names - 29278 bytes) J(1845 names - 247563 bytes) K(2039 names - 273818 bytes) L(2594 names - 347007 bytes) the requirements were expanded (by. Only 5 to 10 percent of enlisted men in the combat units were estimated to have had some college, and less than 1 percent of these enlisted men were college graduates. Army Major Dale Buis' name is etched into the granite half an inch tall, no bigger or smaller than any of the others. Dates of enlsitment or selective service registration will be helpful along with the name military units they served with. However, in 1980, President James E. Carter resumed Selective Service registration in response to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. It is instructive to read the literature of the war, the letters written home from those who died, the novels and narrative accounts of those who served in combat and then returned. All were nurses, all were single and all but one were in their 20s. How many women soldiers died in the Vietnam War? Each entry includes a panel number and letter; "W" is for "west" or the left half of the memorial, "E" is for east, or the right half of the memorial. Folded American flags were presented to his parents and an Air Force helicopter flew over the ceremony. Congress. Full casualty records may be retrieved online through the National Archives' Access to Archival Databases resource. Order records from the National Personnel Records Center, in St. Louis at the Start your Military Service Record Request page at the National Archives website. Kurt Buis was 8 years old the day his father died. . The black granite walls are engraved with the names of more than 58,000 men and women who laid down their lives or remained missing. Patricia Krause. For those and a handful of other unique circumstances, Doubek made his own list of men who had died due to the injuries in the combat zonesnames that may have been listed by an individual service branch, but not by DoD. The USO relies on your support to help service members and their families. and have two columns per page, rather than only one column. Family members are invited to witness the inscription and also to attend the annual Memorial Day ceremony when the new names are read at the Wall. The popularity of the GI Bill after Vietnam emphasized this yearning. Who were they? National Mall and Memorial Parks , Vietnam Veterans Memorial, Download the official NPS app before your next visit. Whether they produced battlefield images of the dead or daguerreotype portraits of common soldiers, []. Click to learn about the In Memory program . During the Vietnam War, the Navy and Air Force became substantially white enclaves enlisted and officer casualties were 96 percent white. Therefore, a complete listing of the records that were lost is not available. It is hard to believe it has been 36 years since the last casualties. How to Order a Draft Record. Officer casualties in Vietnam, including warrant officers, numbered 7,874, or 13.5 percent of all casualties. Learn more about featured topics of the Vietnam War and Vietnam Era. It is not surprising, for instance, that West Virginia, Montana, and Oklahoma had a casualty rate almost twice that of New York, New Jersey and Connecticut. While I was in training, my motivation was to get these wings and I wear them today proudly, the airman recalled in 2015. Look for discharge papers, pictures, medals,etc. Vietnam Veterans Memorial Learn about the Vietnam Veterans Memorial in this brief introductory video. More names are added to the wall every year. ), EDUCATIONAL LEVELS OF ENLISTED CASUALTIES. Its now one of the most popular memorials in Washington. EIN: 52-1149668, Copyright 2023 The Vietnam Veterans Memorial Fund, Javascript must be enabled for the correct page display. This page has been viewed 167,336 times (0 via redirect). It specified the geographic areas of Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia and surrounding coastal areas as combat zones. Compounding these difficulties was the issue that many casualties, particularly from the Air Force, were not always straightforward in terms of locale. You may print these files and have the pages available for visitors to West Virginia had the highest casualty rate per capita in the nation. Please take a moment to let our troops know how much we appreciate their service and sacrifice. 26 Similar Questions Charles Holley; chief editor, Robert J. Martin, 4th Infantry Division. Its unlikely that anyone who visits the memorial on a given day would have the time, the heart or the stomach to read and consider each one. Fully 50 percent were in the 17- to 24-year age group, and astonishingly, there were 764 Army officer casualties who were 21 or younger. Records of individuals who left service more than 62 years ago are considered Archival Records and become records of the National Archives open to the general public. The very young were considered by many to be preferred combat material. On November 7, 2021 VVMF began a daily virtual Reading of the Names. No duplicate copies of the records that were destroyed in the fire were maintained, nor was a microfilm copy ever produced. Black leaders, including Martin Luther King Jr., protested, and President Johnson ordered black participation in combat units cut back. They seem honored to be putting the names on the Wall.. If each There are 711 West Virginians on the Wall. These files are lists of the names on the Vietnam Veterans Memorial, listed in chronological order of the casualty date and then alphabetical by last name within a given date. Every day, Americas service members selflessly put their lives on the line to keep us safe and free. I.. J.. K.. L.. M. N.. O.. P.. Q.. R.. S.. T.. U.. V.. W.. X.. Y.. Z Some are drawn to the Wall like pilgrims to Mecca. In a massive sampling of the database, it was established that between 5 and 6 percent of Vietnam dead had identifiable Hispanic surnames. However, if officer casualties are added to the total, then this overrepresentation is reduced to 12.5 percent of all casualties. The ship had been taken to the island of Koh Tang. These names are followed by the inscription: Our nation honors the courage, sacrifice and devotion to duty and country of its Vietnam veterans. There are over 58,000 names on the Vietnam Veterans Memorial in Washington DC. On July 12, 1973, a disastrous fire at the NPRC destroyed approximately 16-18 million Official Military Personnel Files. It is forgotten now, but in the beginning Congress and most of the American people were behind our containment effort in Vietnam. It is more notable, perhaps, only because his was the first name engraved into The Wall. The same profile holds true for the Marine Corps, where 87 percent of all officer casualties (821 of 938) were warrant officers, lieutenants or captains. Nevertheless, 336,111 men were phased into the service under this plan (mostly the Army) and 2,072 were killed. A Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) study released in 1992, found that our Vietnam casualties were only marginally greater from the economically lowest 50 percent of our communities (31 deaths per 100,000 of population), when compared with the economically highest 50 percent (26 deaths per 100,000 population). And there would be nothing to denote service or rank. The names are listed chronologically by date of death, the first to last. If the two branches are combined, then 80 percent of the Army and Marine enlisted casualties were privates or corporals, grades E-1 to E-4. The largest age group, 8,283 were just 19 years old. In order to have your name on the Wall, you had to have died within the war zone, explained Doubek. Doubek contacted the National Personnel Records Center, Archives and Records Service, in St. Louis, Mo. This index includes those who died or who were declared dead from 1950 to 1957 in Korea and from 1957 to 1975 in Southeast Asia. This is close to, but not exactly in the same order Military Reunions, Screensavers, Rubbings, Personal Guestbook for all Names. The mission of the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Fund (VVMF) is to honor and preserve the legacy of service and educate all generations about the impact of the Vietnam War. These casualties came largely from the Northeast and North Central regions of the United States, many from the traditionally patriotic, Catholic working class neighborhoods. 3rd Battalion. The National Personnel Records Center (NPRC) in St. Louis maintains Vietnam War Official Military Personnel Files (OMPF). Interested in a tour as part of your visit? Except for the last file, there are approximately 10,000 names per file. Physical examination and test results, medical letters, laboratory work and other medical documentation that may have been included in these files no longer exist. The names of Army Master Sergeant Chester Ovnand and Major Dale Buis are inscribed on Panel 1E of the Vietnam War Memorial Wall. Names that become eligible for inclusion are added once each year, in May, a few weeks before Memorial Day. Nor did America recognize, on July 8, 1959the day he was killedthat another long and bloody war lay in wait. Thats a tragic 2,415 more names on the Vietnam Wall in a single month. We searched the National Archives Catalog and located a series titled Muster Rolls and Personnel Diaries, 1941-1980 in the Records of the U.S. Marine Corps (Record Group 127). This uneven impact was caused by a number of factors: (1) While the South was home to some 53 percent of all blacks in the 1970 census, almost 60 percent of black casualties came from the South; (2) Although we cannot be as precise, we do know that a considerable majority of Hispanic-American casualties came from the West, (California, New Mexico, Arizona, Colorado) and the South (Texas); (3) Better employment opportunities in the Northeast reduced the number of volunteers; (4) Greater college matriculation in the Northeast increased the number of status deferments for the regions 17- to 24- year olds; (5) More anti-war sentiment in the media and on college campuses in the Northeast. Those designated by a plus sign were considered to be missing in action when the war ended. And there are the Vietnam veterans, who come to recognize the sacrifice of their fellow warriors, wondering why their own names are not there, too. Vietnam War U.S. Military Fatal Casualty Statistics, Korean War and Vietnam War casualties listed at the National Archives, Hospital Admission Card Files, ca. ARMY AND MARINE OFFICER CASUALTIES BY RANK AND AGE. Many of the 17- and 18-year olds were simply late in maturing. While VVMF finances the name additions to the Wall, it is the Department of Defense that makes these difficult and often technical decisions. Many others joined the reserves or National Guard, which were not mobilized in any appreciable numbers during the war. The USO is a not-for-profit organization and not part of the Department of Defense (DoD). As a result, the software improperly truncated or abbreviated names. This was long before the advent of integrated computer databases. About 58 thousand of the 7 million American service men and women who served in Vietnam died. Of course, the Marine, Navy, and Air Force enlisted casualties were all volunteers, but as it turned out, almost 50 percent of Army enlisted casualties were also volunteers. Names can also be located on The Wall of Faces on VVMFs web site, www.vvmf.org/wall-of-faces, Vietnam Veterans Memorial Fund | 3033 Wilson Blvd, Suite 300 | Arlington VA 22201 | 202.393.0090 https://www.historynet.com/names-on-the-wall-a-closer-look-at-those-who-died-in-vietnam/, Jerrie Mock: Record-Breaking American Female Pilot, When 21 Sikh Soldiers Fought the Odds Against 10,000 Pashtun Warriors, Few Red Tails Remain: Tuskegee Airman Dies at 96. Another browser may inform you that it does not know how to display the file There are the still-grieving family members who come to pay respects as they would at a cemetery, to leave mementos and make chalk renderings of a loved ones name. An Air Force member, with his back to the camera, holds the POW/MIA flag during a full honors funeral for Air Force Second Lieutenant Richard Vandegeer at Arlington National Cemetery on October 27, 2000. Of the 7,877 officer casualties, 7,595, or 96.4 percent, were white; 147, or 1.8 percent, were black; 24, or 0.3 percent, were Asian; 7, or .08 percent, were Native American; 104, or 1.3 percent, were unidentified by race. Look for clues about where he or she lived and served. Forces in Southeast Asia, 1950 - 1976 NAID 745, RG, 472, Meritorious Unit Commendations, 1967 - 1971 NAID 4726287, Medal of Honor Awards Case Files, 1965 - ca. This memorial was built with private contributions from the American people. If a person died or went missing in those areas, DoD considered that individual to be a combat zone casualty and eligible for inclusion on the Wall. A few years after the dedication, the issue of geographic criteria was expanded by DoD to include people who had been killed outside of the war zone while on or in support of direct combat missions. Note the panel and line number for the name listed. With few exceptions, almost all of the 6,600 commissioned officers who died in Vietnam were graduates of the service academies, college Reserve Officers Training Corps (ROTC), or the Officer Candidate School (OCS) programs. This is close to, but not exactly in the same order as the names on the Wall. Their sons, if not college material, made up a significant part of the volunteers and draftees. The Vietnam Veterans Memorial Fund is a 501(c)3 nonprofit organization. This approach would allow veterans, friends and family members to find a loved one by his or her date of casualty. The DOD database listed precise religious preferences for the 58,152 Vietnam casualties. The virtual Wall of Faces features a page dedicated to honoring and remembering every person whose name is inscribed on the Vietnam Veterans Memorial in Washington, D.C. The names are arranged in the order in which they were taken from us by date and within each date the names are alphabetized. Please be patient Unfortunately, the Department of Defense and the individual service branches maintained separate casualty lists with slightly differing criteria. Thirty one sets of parents lost two of their sons. The DOD database shows that of the 2,100,000 men and women who served in Vietnam, 58,152 were killed. The lists are based on the "home of record - state" data provided by the serviceman or woman upon last entrance into military service. And in the patriotic camaraderie typical of Morencis mining families, the nine graduates of Morenci High enlisted as a group in the Marine Corps. Its been more than 20 years since Forrest Gump debuted on the silver screen and nearly a generation later, its characters still resonate with todays service members. November 11, 1982. There is no question that all segments of American society were represented. Locate the corresponding panel at the Memorial. A doctor arrived and gave his shaken mother a sedative. What happens to items left at the memorial? His name is listed on the Wall with that of his son, Marine Corps Lance Cpl. How many Smiths can there possibly be who died in Vietnam? They played ball at the adjacent sandlot ball field. In quieter moments, they rode horses along the Coronado Trail, stalked deer in the Apache National Forest. As Maya Ling Lin, the architect of the Wall, has said: It was as if the black-brown earth were polished and made into an interface between the sunny world and the quiet dark world beyond that we cannot enter. But after World War II a kind of educational apartheid had settled over the United States. Others, later in the war, were simply ineligible because of high lottery number. Vietnam War: in Country, Notice: Scanning of Vietnam-era Deck Logs, Vietnam War, 1961-1975. How many names are on the wall? His name does not appear at either far end. The virtual Wall of Faces features a page dedicated to honoring and remembering every person whose name is inscribed on the Vietnam Veterans Memorial in Washington, D.C. The DOD percentages reveal that nearly 75 percent of Army enlisted casualties were privates or corporals. True enough, but many of the surviving Vietnam casualty families would reply that the ultimate unfairness is death at an early age, in a land far from home, for reasons not clearly defined. It may come as a surprise to some that 63.3 percent of all Vietnam enlisted casualties were not draftees but volunteers. The vision of VVMF is to ensure a society in which all who have served and sacrificed in our nation's Armed Forces are properly honored and receive the recognition they justly deserve. Photo credit DOD photo by Army Sgt. Few areas of the world have been as hotly contested as the India-Pakistan border. . At some The Moving Wall sites, the sponsor makes arrangements The list of names begins at the vertex of the walls below the date of the first casualty, 1959, and continues to the end of the east wall. U.S. Army Personnel and Dependent Casualties, 1961-1981 85% of the records in this database are related to the Vietnam Conflict. The central idea of the poem is that the Vietnamese War took hundreds of lives away from the United States of America. HistoryNet.com contains daily features, photo galleries and over 25,000 articles originally published in our nine magazines. This number of deaths per 100,000 compared strikingly with the 23.5 in the Northeast region, 29.9 in the West and 28.4 in the North Central (Midwest) region. For more great articles be sure to subscribe to Vietnam Magazine today! The Vietnam Veterans Memorial stands as a symbol of America's honor and recognition of the men and women who served and sacrificed their lives in the Vietnam War. Making these arrangements and printing the pages takes considerable Protestants were 64.4 percent (37,483), Catholics were 28.9 percent (16,806). The result: no comprehensive master list of Vietnam War casualties existed. In honor of the men and women of the Armed Forces of the United States who served in the Vietnam War. that each name was a real person. The Vietnam Veterans Memorial was dedicated on November 10, 1982, with 57,939 names. Most of the young American enlisted men who served in Vietnam were not college prospects at the time they entered the service. Eight women were killed in Vietnam, five Army lieutenants, one Army captain, one Army lieutenant colonel and one Air Force captain. This change prompted the addition of 110 names in 1986. On the west wall, the symbol precedes the name; on the east wall, the symbol follows the name. The young enlisted volunteer or draftee had not had much time to form any complicated theories about our Vietnam commitment. One soldier, PFC Dan Bullock was 15 years old. Nursing the wounded. The figures show that on average 65 percent of white enlisted men and 60 percent of black enlisted men were high school graduates. Hed volunteered to join a small U.S. military advisory team attached to the South Vietnamese army, and hed been in the village of Bien Hoa for only two days. readers. The article was written by Bill Abbott, an independent researcher and writer. The event begins on November 7, 2022 at 3 p.m. EST and ends at midnight on November 10, 2022. During and after the Vietnam War, the Department of Defense (DoD) compiled a list of combat zone casualties according to criteria in a 1965 Presidential Executive Order. Only the Navy, with 50 percent of its enlisted casualties over 21, and the Air Force, with 75 percent over 21, showed an older, more experienced age demographic. Subscribe to receive our weekly newsletter with top stories from master historians. The Selective Service registration requirement was later suspended in April 1975. Indeed, officer casualties of all branches were overwhelmingly white. (Surprisingly, as it turned out, the percentage of Vietnam veterans who applied for the GI Bill was higher than either World War II or Korea. columns per page. Much more detailed The first known casualty was Richard B. Fitzgibbon, of North Weymouth, MA; he was listed by theDepartment of Defense as having been killed on June 8, 1956. Fill out the tour request form. United States. Richard Sandza received the message on the morning of May 15, 1975, the day his friend became the last American to die in combat during the Vietnam War. Vietnam Veterans Memorial Fund | 3033 Wilson Blvd, Suite 300 | Arlington VA 22201 | 202.393.0090 The slabs meet at a vertex of 125 degrees, 10 feet above ground level to form the Wall. As a result, it was mainly the families of Navy and Air Force pilots and crewmen who suffered the great agony of the POW (prisoner of war) and MIA (missing in action) experience that came out of the Vietnam War. For more information on this index on, Records relating to American prisoners of war and missing in action from the Vietnam War, including lists and descriptions of the record groups covering the Vietnam War that are held by the National Archives are also found in the FS Library US/CAN Book. All would be represented equally, with generals listed alongside infantrymen. As she wisely predicted, this would help bring the veterans back in timeand a cathartic healing would occur for many by facing this loss again.. VVMF receives numerous requests each year from individuals who wish to have particular names added to the Memorial. For families who have worked to have their loved ones name added, the journey can be long and exhausting. The vision of VVMF is to ensure a society in which all who have served and sacrificed in our nation's Armed Forces are properly honored and receive the recognition they justly deserve. 54 soldiers on the Wall attended Thomas Edison High School in Philadelphia. The most casualty deaths for a single day was on January 31, 1968 245 deaths. No single persons service or sacrifice would be any greater than anyone elses. The Vietnam Wall. Almost 50 percent were majors, lieutenant-colonels, colonels and three were generals. This page was last edited on 12 December 2022, at 18:28. Today, more than 58,000 names are engraved in the wall, and more were added in May. Sad to say, many of these recruitment promises were fudged in one way or another, and many of these young men found themselves shipped directly to Vietnam after basic training. Little about it is concrete. There was no need to embellish. Be the first to learn about news, service member stories and fundraising updates from USO. The names are arranged in the order in which they were taken from us by date and within each date the names are alphabetized. The DOD database provides no civilian or military educational levels for the Vietnam casualties specifically, but it does give us general levels for all enlisted men across all the services during the Vietnam era. Inscribed dots in the margins of every other panel mark every 10 lines to aid in counting. There is some truth to this, but it is instructive to look at what the DOD database reveals in terms of race, ethnicity, national origin, religious preference and casualties by U.S. geographic areas. THE NAMES ON THE WALL: AN HISTORICAL JUDGMENT. 1972, United States, National Archives, Military Records, 1885-2004, United States, National Archives, Korean War and Vietnam War Records, Start your Military Service Record Request, National Archives at St. Louis, Selective Service Records. If officers are added, then almost 70 percent of those who died were volunteers. offer to read the block of names that includes their special names. Though blessed with talent, his life wasnt without struggles. 39,996 on the Wall were just 22 or younger. Beside each name is a symbol that denotes a service members status: either missing or confirmed dead. He tried to make the best call he could when adding names to the list. name within a given date. Air Force Historical Research Agency 600 Chenault Circle Maxwell AFB, AL 36112-6424Telephone: (334) 953-2395, ArmyU.S. Library of Congress, National Archives Reference Information Page 90 A Finding Aid to Records Relating to American Prisoners of War and Missing in Action from the Vietnam War Era, 1960-1994, Records on Military Personnel Who Died, Were Missing in Action or Prisoners of War as a Result of the Vietnam War, Missing Vietnam Military Resulting from Hostile Forces, Missing Vietnam Military NOT Resulting from Hostile Forces, Vietnam War, Awards and Decorations of Honor, 1965-1972, Medal of Honor Awards Case Files, 1965 - ca. Most of these casualties are documented in the Military Index, a FamilySearch file. All other individual draftee files from that period were destroyed by the Selective Service System in 1978, in accordance with approved records retention schedules. Army Major Dale Buis name is etched into the granite half an inch tall, no bigger or smaller than any of the others. An aunt came and loaded the three boys into the car. This was a reflection of the role of warrant officers as helicopter pilots (of the 1,277 warrant officer casualties, 95 percent were Army helicopter pilots), and of the young lieutenants and captains as combat platoon leaders or company commanders. As of 2017, there are 58,318 names inscribed on The Wall. Copies of WWII though Vietnam era (men born April 28, 1877 to March 28, 1957) Selective Service Records may be obtained from the National Personnel Records Center, in St. Louis, for a fee. Each name is listed with great honor and respect. For weeks and weeks, a team worked through the list, verifying spellings and ensuring that the computer printout that was to be used for the stenciling was correct. As one walks the Wall slowly, examining the ineffably American names, one is struck by the same recurring surnames. On the other end of that phone call was an former Air Force officer who had served in Vietnam. Committee on Veterans' Affairs, Kansas, Sheridan County, Viet Nam records, 1955-1975, Vermont, National Guard, Vietnam war, 1950-1953, University of Utah - American West Center - Saving the Legacy/ Vietnam Veterans, https://www.familysearch.org/en/wiki/index.php?title=United_States_Vietnam_War_1964_to_1972&oldid=5123794, Personnel discharged November 1, 1912 to January 1, 1960, Personnel discharged, September 25, 1947 to January 1, 1964, The Military Index is available at the FamilySearch Library and at most FamilySearch centers. HistoryNet.com is brought to you by HistoryNet LLC, the worlds largest publisher of history magazines. 1,448 soldiers were killed on their last day in Vietnam. Ninety-one percent of these Army officers were warrant officers, second lieutenants, first lieutenants or captains. Her name? 997 soldiers were killed on their first day in Vietnam. They were struggling through or dropping out of high school, or if a high school graduate, had tested poorly for college entrance. The index gives birth and death dates, country of death, cause of death (air, ground, or sea), town and state of residence at time of enlistment, race, religious affiliation, marital status, service number, rank, and branch of service. This is the genius of Mayas design, said Scruggs. The directories are organized alphabetically by last name. Beginning at the apex on panel 1E and going out to the end of the East wall, appearing to recede into the earth (numbered 70E May 25, 1968), then resuming at the end of the West wall, as the wall emerges from the earth (numbered 70W continuing May 25, 1968) and ending with a date in 1975.